im reminded of the comment you made re gop gubernatorial candidate mark robinson that you almost gotta hand it to trump for managing, in true american fashion, to integrate national socialism
maga has managed to be a perversely inclusive movement, a nondenominational fascism that welcomes all the worst people regardless of race, sexuality, etc
Sort of incidentally, I’m thinking about everybody else mixed up in his madman projects, given the size and number of people involved. I’ve worked off and on as a session piano player, and I’m afraid I’m telling a guy to go fuck himself who calls to say,, “hey, I’m doing a Heil Hitler song, we pay scale.” Just wonder if they’re all on board with this shit or if he just pays astronomical wages and they jump.
Alas, you will probably be waiting awhile. A lot of people really don't want to know who else may have been involved with covering for Ye or how far back these beliefs could go. The few of us who would want to know such things will be ignored.
There are a lot of people in the music industry that knew about this, and some really didn't mind. Perhaps a few music journalists, too. By and large, those who would be implicated have kept their silence. Did you ever notice how few people went on the record to confirm Ye's beliefs, even after he went on Alex Jones?
This is an excellent analysis of the Kanye/Ye phenomenon, but it brought to my mind certain thoughts: In reviewing to myself all the features of the current political scene which I did not grow up with (in the 1950s, 60s, 70s and 80s), but which we all now have to grapple with, these came to mind: (1)-Brazen breaking of the law in the full light of day; (2)-Concomitantly with that, no shame--or even the celebration of shamelessness; (3)-Realization that the Constitution has significant weak points or grey areas that were never so heavily exploited in the past as now watchguard devices are demolished and personal loyalty demanded; (4)-Kowtowing: The requirement of total personal loyalty from fellow party members with dire consequences for those of independent thinking (no more "RINOS") to the point that there is, effectively, no more Congress; (5)-Chaos as a strategy ("flood the zone"); (6)-Diminishment of traditional media gatekeepers so that media toxicities (such as doxxing) abound along with a plethora of conspiracy theories; (7)-"Owning"--the idea that opponents have to be triumphantly and leeringly "owned" rather than engaged; (8)--the presence of billionaires (non-existent in my youth) whose interference in politics is extremely difficult to parry. (9)-The sinking realization that there is a significant number of people in the country who go along with all this--and even ardently support it in contradiction to all Liberal Democratic norms.
Now, after reading this posting, I have another addition to my list: impotence: the near-celebration by our opponents that there is little or nothing the rest of us can do about some travesty or another. Yes, there were moments in history when public uproar brought about change (French Revolution, Russian Revolution--and one could even argue that public uproar in certain sectors facilitated the rise and election of Trump)--but now, much as a I support the counter-Trump moves of so many of the demonstrations and angry town hall meetings with Congress-members, I still feel very impotent. I am in continuous contact with many angry people (anger against the Trumpist enterprise). We are forever sharing information and ranting--and yes, going to demonstrations. But how much can we change with demonstrations and town hall fights? The only way to actually do things seems to be to get in charge of the institutions of government--and that has now proven very difficult for people of my political persuasion. Maybe I am being too pessimistic. But in the meantime, the Kanye/Ye defiance machine is the current (of what passes for aesthetic) expression of that impotence. Art always tells us where we are.
It is marked how little effective resistance modern authoritarianism has to deal with, or by extension how little physical coercion is involved (unless you’re subject to ICE kidnappings, of course).
To contrast, by mid-1933 the SA numbered about 2 million - that’s around 3% of Germany’s population at the time, all out on the streets cracking heads. By 1934 that number was doubled when the SA absorbed the Stahlhelm (veteran’s organization). Any non-nazis left didn’t stand a chance.
In 2025 America, this would amount to roughly 24 million armed thugs roaming around beating on whoever wasn’t on side. (I think modern historians of Nazism now pretty much agree that flat-out brute coercion was an essential element in the consolidation of the Nazi criminal state).
Personally, I don’t really have much of an idea what to think about any of this.
the "four more years" chant (that i first heard in my teens with bush 2004) always seemed like a jeer more than a celebration, directed at people who didn't want it to happen. "that's what you're getting and you can't stop it"
The in-your-face flaunting, constantly underwritten with menace, of the unformed, the uninformed, the unfinished, the inarticulate, the love, not of the masses, but of the mass sharing of grievances and a hankering after a supposed better past, are traits held in common by the Nazis and the current ultra-right. This applies to the US, but not only. Ye in all that, I don't know. A moneymaker sniffing the wind?
I agree that there is no ideal response, but I wouldn’t dismiss the benefits of mockery. Most idiots who embrace Nazism for its shock value do so because they don’t have a personality and, as such, have nothing interesting to talk about. They are the equivalent of eight-year-olds trying to impress their friends by eating glue or chimpanzees who fling their feces at bystanders. And this is exactly what we should convey to them. If their goal is indeed to “intimidate and disconcert,” mockery does pretty well at short-circuiting that effect. If a crowd is mocking you, they are necessarily neither intimidated nor disconcerted. We can treat them as the danger that they are while also mocking them at the same time, vowing to never let them anywhere near positions of power ever again.
I never developed any kind of love for Kanye’s music that might make it possible to stomach his schtick now, so I appreciate the generosity and openness you bring and the thoughtful interpretation that results. I’m fascinated that this seems to be yet another manifestation of the MAGA phenomenon of a florid display a species of self-loathing as an assertion of power. Wear the hair suit as armor, publicly hate yourself so much that you hate the world and want it turned to ashes. I see it in incels (as you say), in JD Vance who clearly hates himself like incels do.
Another manifestation of this (especially in women) that has been haunting me that I wanted to share: I see it in “Republican makeup” and Mar-a-Lago Face (In Bed With The Right had a good podcast episode on this with Jessica DeFino last month). Makeup and plastic surgery that’s so conspicious is almost disfiguring, as a way to both signal group belonging, but also to crush the reality of the body with its execrable, embarrassing human frailties and imperfections. Yet in the process of crushing those frailties, you basically scream to the world that you’re humiliated and vulnerable. The amount of conspicuous WORK to do gender in the right way, to conform to the big boss’s idea of how a woman ought to look (or how a man ought to be, because the gender performance for men in MAGA world is also absurdly confining) screams out how inadequate you are without the hours of daily effort. The in-your-face vulnerability is a display of vulnerability on the one hand, but on the other hand it’s a strange kind of armor. There’s a kind of go-for-broke quality to the performance — it doesn’t pretend to be effortless, it doesn’t try to be “natural” in any way — it’s so over the top that you throw yourself into the arms of your brethren. You’re all-in, and it’s kind of embarassing to people in the out-group, because there’s a desperate quality to it, but there’s camraderie if you stay in with the in-group. But also there’s an absurdity to the performance that you can hide in (in the case of Mar-a-Lago face, you can literally hide, because the fillers and work make your face inscrutable — think of Kristi Noem at CECOT, whose face can maybe only register a narrow range of human emotion). In Kanye’s case, the Heil Hitler crap is patently absurd — it’s both a cry from the heart but also so over-the-top that you can shrink from it and maintain a kind of detachment.
It feels new to me to see so many people publicly perform self loathing combined with bloodthirst at such scale. I see it in your description of Kanye, and it frankly seems rampant to me in MAGA world. I feel like there’s something more there, but I can’t quite put my finger on it.
Footnote?: In addition to Mel Brooks, Eugenio Montale wrote a Primavera Hitleriana. The occasion: “Hitler and Mussolini in Florence. Gala evening at Teatro Comunale. On the Arno, a snowfall of white butterflies”(Montale’s note). It goes:
“Dense, the white cloud of moths whirling crazily around the feeble streetlights and parapets strews on the pavement a shroud that crunches like sugar underfoot …
“Minutes past a demon angel zoomed down the street through aisles of heiling assassins; suddenly a Hellmouth yawned, lurid, draped with hooked crosses, seized him, gulped him down; the shops are bolted shut …
“ghosts in the wet mud, water gnawing at the banks, and no one’s guiltless anymore … “
"Kanye" is a worthless fool. He always has been. Along with all those Kardashians. It is shameful that anyone pays attention to any of them. They are famous for being famous. They did not invent the concept; there have always been attention seekers like this.
You can not like Kanye/Ye - I think most people in these comments are on board with that - or his music specifically. But the "rap isn't music" argument is an old racist saw that we don't need to throw around here in order to express disdain/frustration/disgust/disapproval/whatever of what Ye is doing.
Why is it racist? Kanye's pro-hitler-song is racist.
I make music, orchestral and choral, several times a week. I like jazz and latin music. Rap is so far from being music that when a kid wants to study music, the interviewer has to ask the candidate to produce a sample. Many kids are unaware that there is such a thing as vocal music. They can't sing at all.
Rap is delivered in pretty much a monotone.
I picked the first file I found on YouTube and listened to half of it. I don't think this file attachment will play, though. Entirely monotonous sound. The graphics were pretty cool. Featured musician -- Young Thug.
Money On Money (feat. Future) - YouTube Music.mhtml
Talk about a candidate for an involuntary commitment order. It might free Censori; who always seems to photograph like she's a hostage in a ransom video.
im reminded of the comment you made re gop gubernatorial candidate mark robinson that you almost gotta hand it to trump for managing, in true american fashion, to integrate national socialism
maga has managed to be a perversely inclusive movement, a nondenominational fascism that welcomes all the worst people regardless of race, sexuality, etc
It's a long way from "Jesus Walks" to "Heil Hitler"
Sort of incidentally, I’m thinking about everybody else mixed up in his madman projects, given the size and number of people involved. I’ve worked off and on as a session piano player, and I’m afraid I’m telling a guy to go fuck himself who calls to say,, “hey, I’m doing a Heil Hitler song, we pay scale.” Just wonder if they’re all on board with this shit or if he just pays astronomical wages and they jump.
Oh man, that's so true. I now NEED the investigative piece
Alas, you will probably be waiting awhile. A lot of people really don't want to know who else may have been involved with covering for Ye or how far back these beliefs could go. The few of us who would want to know such things will be ignored.
DOGE personnel moonlighting?
There are a lot of people in the music industry that knew about this, and some really didn't mind. Perhaps a few music journalists, too. By and large, those who would be implicated have kept their silence. Did you ever notice how few people went on the record to confirm Ye's beliefs, even after he went on Alex Jones?
This is an excellent analysis of the Kanye/Ye phenomenon, but it brought to my mind certain thoughts: In reviewing to myself all the features of the current political scene which I did not grow up with (in the 1950s, 60s, 70s and 80s), but which we all now have to grapple with, these came to mind: (1)-Brazen breaking of the law in the full light of day; (2)-Concomitantly with that, no shame--or even the celebration of shamelessness; (3)-Realization that the Constitution has significant weak points or grey areas that were never so heavily exploited in the past as now watchguard devices are demolished and personal loyalty demanded; (4)-Kowtowing: The requirement of total personal loyalty from fellow party members with dire consequences for those of independent thinking (no more "RINOS") to the point that there is, effectively, no more Congress; (5)-Chaos as a strategy ("flood the zone"); (6)-Diminishment of traditional media gatekeepers so that media toxicities (such as doxxing) abound along with a plethora of conspiracy theories; (7)-"Owning"--the idea that opponents have to be triumphantly and leeringly "owned" rather than engaged; (8)--the presence of billionaires (non-existent in my youth) whose interference in politics is extremely difficult to parry. (9)-The sinking realization that there is a significant number of people in the country who go along with all this--and even ardently support it in contradiction to all Liberal Democratic norms.
Now, after reading this posting, I have another addition to my list: impotence: the near-celebration by our opponents that there is little or nothing the rest of us can do about some travesty or another. Yes, there were moments in history when public uproar brought about change (French Revolution, Russian Revolution--and one could even argue that public uproar in certain sectors facilitated the rise and election of Trump)--but now, much as a I support the counter-Trump moves of so many of the demonstrations and angry town hall meetings with Congress-members, I still feel very impotent. I am in continuous contact with many angry people (anger against the Trumpist enterprise). We are forever sharing information and ranting--and yes, going to demonstrations. But how much can we change with demonstrations and town hall fights? The only way to actually do things seems to be to get in charge of the institutions of government--and that has now proven very difficult for people of my political persuasion. Maybe I am being too pessimistic. But in the meantime, the Kanye/Ye defiance machine is the current (of what passes for aesthetic) expression of that impotence. Art always tells us where we are.
It is marked how little effective resistance modern authoritarianism has to deal with, or by extension how little physical coercion is involved (unless you’re subject to ICE kidnappings, of course).
To contrast, by mid-1933 the SA numbered about 2 million - that’s around 3% of Germany’s population at the time, all out on the streets cracking heads. By 1934 that number was doubled when the SA absorbed the Stahlhelm (veteran’s organization). Any non-nazis left didn’t stand a chance.
In 2025 America, this would amount to roughly 24 million armed thugs roaming around beating on whoever wasn’t on side. (I think modern historians of Nazism now pretty much agree that flat-out brute coercion was an essential element in the consolidation of the Nazi criminal state).
Personally, I don’t really have much of an idea what to think about any of this.
the "four more years" chant (that i first heard in my teens with bush 2004) always seemed like a jeer more than a celebration, directed at people who didn't want it to happen. "that's what you're getting and you can't stop it"
The in-your-face flaunting, constantly underwritten with menace, of the unformed, the uninformed, the unfinished, the inarticulate, the love, not of the masses, but of the mass sharing of grievances and a hankering after a supposed better past, are traits held in common by the Nazis and the current ultra-right. This applies to the US, but not only. Ye in all that, I don't know. A moneymaker sniffing the wind?
I agree that there is no ideal response, but I wouldn’t dismiss the benefits of mockery. Most idiots who embrace Nazism for its shock value do so because they don’t have a personality and, as such, have nothing interesting to talk about. They are the equivalent of eight-year-olds trying to impress their friends by eating glue or chimpanzees who fling their feces at bystanders. And this is exactly what we should convey to them. If their goal is indeed to “intimidate and disconcert,” mockery does pretty well at short-circuiting that effect. If a crowd is mocking you, they are necessarily neither intimidated nor disconcerted. We can treat them as the danger that they are while also mocking them at the same time, vowing to never let them anywhere near positions of power ever again.
I never developed any kind of love for Kanye’s music that might make it possible to stomach his schtick now, so I appreciate the generosity and openness you bring and the thoughtful interpretation that results. I’m fascinated that this seems to be yet another manifestation of the MAGA phenomenon of a florid display a species of self-loathing as an assertion of power. Wear the hair suit as armor, publicly hate yourself so much that you hate the world and want it turned to ashes. I see it in incels (as you say), in JD Vance who clearly hates himself like incels do.
Another manifestation of this (especially in women) that has been haunting me that I wanted to share: I see it in “Republican makeup” and Mar-a-Lago Face (In Bed With The Right had a good podcast episode on this with Jessica DeFino last month). Makeup and plastic surgery that’s so conspicious is almost disfiguring, as a way to both signal group belonging, but also to crush the reality of the body with its execrable, embarrassing human frailties and imperfections. Yet in the process of crushing those frailties, you basically scream to the world that you’re humiliated and vulnerable. The amount of conspicuous WORK to do gender in the right way, to conform to the big boss’s idea of how a woman ought to look (or how a man ought to be, because the gender performance for men in MAGA world is also absurdly confining) screams out how inadequate you are without the hours of daily effort. The in-your-face vulnerability is a display of vulnerability on the one hand, but on the other hand it’s a strange kind of armor. There’s a kind of go-for-broke quality to the performance — it doesn’t pretend to be effortless, it doesn’t try to be “natural” in any way — it’s so over the top that you throw yourself into the arms of your brethren. You’re all-in, and it’s kind of embarassing to people in the out-group, because there’s a desperate quality to it, but there’s camraderie if you stay in with the in-group. But also there’s an absurdity to the performance that you can hide in (in the case of Mar-a-Lago face, you can literally hide, because the fillers and work make your face inscrutable — think of Kristi Noem at CECOT, whose face can maybe only register a narrow range of human emotion). In Kanye’s case, the Heil Hitler crap is patently absurd — it’s both a cry from the heart but also so over-the-top that you can shrink from it and maintain a kind of detachment.
It feels new to me to see so many people publicly perform self loathing combined with bloodthirst at such scale. I see it in your description of Kanye, and it frankly seems rampant to me in MAGA world. I feel like there’s something more there, but I can’t quite put my finger on it.
Footnote?: In addition to Mel Brooks, Eugenio Montale wrote a Primavera Hitleriana. The occasion: “Hitler and Mussolini in Florence. Gala evening at Teatro Comunale. On the Arno, a snowfall of white butterflies”(Montale’s note). It goes:
“Dense, the white cloud of moths whirling crazily around the feeble streetlights and parapets strews on the pavement a shroud that crunches like sugar underfoot …
“Minutes past a demon angel zoomed down the street through aisles of heiling assassins; suddenly a Hellmouth yawned, lurid, draped with hooked crosses, seized him, gulped him down; the shops are bolted shut …
“ghosts in the wet mud, water gnawing at the banks, and no one’s guiltless anymore … “
Kanye hear the fascists sing . . .
"Kanye" is a worthless fool. He always has been. Along with all those Kardashians. It is shameful that anyone pays attention to any of them. They are famous for being famous. They did not invent the concept; there have always been attention seekers like this.
Well, as a matter of fact, Kanye is famous for his music.
1. That isn't music, it's "rap".
2. https://www.yahoo.com/news/kanye-west-pro-hitler-song-160557739.html
Attention seeking!
There seems to be a bit of a generation gap thing going on here.
You can not like Kanye/Ye - I think most people in these comments are on board with that - or his music specifically. But the "rap isn't music" argument is an old racist saw that we don't need to throw around here in order to express disdain/frustration/disgust/disapproval/whatever of what Ye is doing.
Why is it racist? Kanye's pro-hitler-song is racist.
I make music, orchestral and choral, several times a week. I like jazz and latin music. Rap is so far from being music that when a kid wants to study music, the interviewer has to ask the candidate to produce a sample. Many kids are unaware that there is such a thing as vocal music. They can't sing at all.
Rap is delivered in pretty much a monotone.
I picked the first file I found on YouTube and listened to half of it. I don't think this file attachment will play, though. Entirely monotonous sound. The graphics were pretty cool. Featured musician -- Young Thug.
Money On Money (feat. Future) - YouTube Music.mhtml
There's so much writing on this online, and I have a 6-week old to take care of, so I'll just recommend checking this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=_3utH8Nm_D4
In general, I'm not looking to be on the same side of any argument that Ben Shapiro is making.
Talk about a candidate for an involuntary commitment order. It might free Censori; who always seems to photograph like she's a hostage in a ransom video.
It was probably Louis Farrakhan who initially guided Ye onto this path a while ago.
If this all started pre-Candace, would people even want to know?