Thanks very much for this fascinating conversation.
"And I was the stupid one, because part of the game is that we're all being stupid together."
This is going to haunt me for a long time.
Thanks also for the observation that riots like Jan 6 can be "both stupid and dangerous at the same time." I enjoyed the tie-in to One Battle After Another, that was a nice gloss.
the throughline from 4chan to the posters' putsch was captured in a photo of two maga chuds brandishing giant kekistan flags from the steps of the capitol, a single image of the historic moment when cyberspace and meatspace became one
Fascinating conversation. John sounds like he's giving Eric Hoffer's psychology for joining mass movements in The True Believer (1951):
> A mass movement, particularly in its active, revivalist phase, appeals not to those intent on bolstering and advancing a cherished self, but to those who crave to be rid of an unwanted self...anything undertaken under the auspices of the self seems to them foredoomed.
That book definitely needs a revisit in the age that Elle describes.
John the discussion about the psychology of the desire to join the mob really reminds me of The Confirmist (where he’s talking about a fascist being the man of the crowd who checks out a woman when she walks past; but he’s also not someone who organically fits into it eg in the dance scene).
Thats a natural part of human psychology but if you’ve got a lot of it and are in the wrong place at the wrong time you can end up an evil dude
Working on a book now about my arc in and out of the Alt-Right, and I have to bookmark this conversation—too much my own psychology, and of what I struggle to get across about the Alt-Right in particular and the far right in general, is taken up here. I wish the story of my frailty and self-loathing were not as relevant to what is happening abroad in society as it is, but here we are.
A great talk that makes one want to read Elle Reeve's book (I also really liked the quotation cited in the NYT review of the book, where she says she has a relationship to these guys as if they were "veterans who’d fought on the opposite sides of a war.")
As a millennial who spent time in american online spaces, there's a lot in this alt-right generation that feels uncannily familiar, with the cultural references and the troll culture. It's not hard to picture them developing a full online persona and thinking they were having some kind of edge as they expressed forbidden opinions in their dark corners of the Internet, and made normies shriek when they raided their online spaces. Shed some light on them, see what they look in real life, and it's indeed all pretty pathetic and repellent.
I wonder a lot about how directly this subculture influenced the obviously very online millenial members or allies of the Trump administration, above all Stephen Miller.
I always thought of the libertarian to nazi pipeline as people who think that if the world just ran the way that is obvious to them, then they would end up winning. In my understanding, it is kind of particular to the place and time of the 90's and 00's. Central to that libertarianism is a sense of what is 'obvious' as being the central idea, combined with people who are really self-centered. We all are socialized to the point of things being automatic in a certain cultural/social framework. Most white people who don't have much self reflection or awareness to the broader world and are typically in very white spaces, just think that a whole set of things that build a society are just 'natural' because they end up feeling that way. Just as you get used to the everyday physics of the world, as you grow up you get used to a society that feels natural. And there was a feeling in 90's - 00's America that there is kind of a neo-liberal foundations have become 'natural.' I feel that a libertarianism to them is just letting society run how it 'naturally' is, confident that those things that are so obvious and permanent feeling are that way because of kind of the feeling of a physics of 'how-the-world-works.' I think that the nazi-ism of it is when enough of them realized that there is a lot more active construction to the social world than letting things be obvious. And now that strains of nazi-ism in America is normalized for teenagers, you can just start telling people you have to actively take part instead of realizing it just won't naturally happen.
Like, I feel that the entry point/ resting point for a lot of people into racism or sexism is the fact that there is a feeling or understanding of people as races and sexes as natural and obvious. Most racists say they aren't racist, they are just stating the 'obvious.' And I think that such an opinion is genuine.
Thanks very much for this fascinating conversation.
"And I was the stupid one, because part of the game is that we're all being stupid together."
This is going to haunt me for a long time.
Thanks also for the observation that riots like Jan 6 can be "both stupid and dangerous at the same time." I enjoyed the tie-in to One Battle After Another, that was a nice gloss.
the throughline from 4chan to the posters' putsch was captured in a photo of two maga chuds brandishing giant kekistan flags from the steps of the capitol, a single image of the historic moment when cyberspace and meatspace became one
Elle Reeve sounds like a scientist dissecting and pinning bug specimens, and I mean that as a massive compliment.
Thanks as always John for this great content.
Fascinating conversation. John sounds like he's giving Eric Hoffer's psychology for joining mass movements in The True Believer (1951):
> A mass movement, particularly in its active, revivalist phase, appeals not to those intent on bolstering and advancing a cherished self, but to those who crave to be rid of an unwanted self...anything undertaken under the auspices of the self seems to them foredoomed.
That book definitely needs a revisit in the age that Elle describes.
John the discussion about the psychology of the desire to join the mob really reminds me of The Confirmist (where he’s talking about a fascist being the man of the crowd who checks out a woman when she walks past; but he’s also not someone who organically fits into it eg in the dance scene).
Thats a natural part of human psychology but if you’ve got a lot of it and are in the wrong place at the wrong time you can end up an evil dude
This was so engaging. Please have her on for another conversation at some point if you can find a good thing to chew on.
Great conversation!
I enjoyed this conversation a lot, especially when the most John Ganz thing possible happened:
Elle: "These people are calling each other Nazis during phone sex."
John: "You know this makes me think of something Hannah Arendt said"
Shit, another book I have to read! Good conversation.
Working on a book now about my arc in and out of the Alt-Right, and I have to bookmark this conversation—too much my own psychology, and of what I struggle to get across about the Alt-Right in particular and the far right in general, is taken up here. I wish the story of my frailty and self-loathing were not as relevant to what is happening abroad in society as it is, but here we are.
A great talk that makes one want to read Elle Reeve's book (I also really liked the quotation cited in the NYT review of the book, where she says she has a relationship to these guys as if they were "veterans who’d fought on the opposite sides of a war.")
As a millennial who spent time in american online spaces, there's a lot in this alt-right generation that feels uncannily familiar, with the cultural references and the troll culture. It's not hard to picture them developing a full online persona and thinking they were having some kind of edge as they expressed forbidden opinions in their dark corners of the Internet, and made normies shriek when they raided their online spaces. Shed some light on them, see what they look in real life, and it's indeed all pretty pathetic and repellent.
I wonder a lot about how directly this subculture influenced the obviously very online millenial members or allies of the Trump administration, above all Stephen Miller.
I always thought of the libertarian to nazi pipeline as people who think that if the world just ran the way that is obvious to them, then they would end up winning. In my understanding, it is kind of particular to the place and time of the 90's and 00's. Central to that libertarianism is a sense of what is 'obvious' as being the central idea, combined with people who are really self-centered. We all are socialized to the point of things being automatic in a certain cultural/social framework. Most white people who don't have much self reflection or awareness to the broader world and are typically in very white spaces, just think that a whole set of things that build a society are just 'natural' because they end up feeling that way. Just as you get used to the everyday physics of the world, as you grow up you get used to a society that feels natural. And there was a feeling in 90's - 00's America that there is kind of a neo-liberal foundations have become 'natural.' I feel that a libertarianism to them is just letting society run how it 'naturally' is, confident that those things that are so obvious and permanent feeling are that way because of kind of the feeling of a physics of 'how-the-world-works.' I think that the nazi-ism of it is when enough of them realized that there is a lot more active construction to the social world than letting things be obvious. And now that strains of nazi-ism in America is normalized for teenagers, you can just start telling people you have to actively take part instead of realizing it just won't naturally happen.
Like, I feel that the entry point/ resting point for a lot of people into racism or sexism is the fact that there is a feeling or understanding of people as races and sexes as natural and obvious. Most racists say they aren't racist, they are just stating the 'obvious.' And I think that such an opinion is genuine.