This is really fascinating in trying to locate the origin of Trump's authoritarianism. It seems to me he's mostly motivated by the need for leverage. He sees every interaction as a way to gain or use leverage over others. That's why he pardons a drug kingpin like Orlando Hernandez and a crypto criminal like CZ. He sees them as tools for leverage. And so far Congress seems willing to let him do it with impunity and SCOTUS has already given him carte blanche.
roughly around 26: "what my oppeonents say (...) The big thing… is that italy and germany were these revisionist powers (...) against anglo-american dominance." The Trump administration IS trying to be a revisionist power against Anglo-American dominance. The new security strategy finally made that obvious .
Which of Joel Mokyr’s books was Prof Herf was referring to? Mokyr’s oeuvre doesn’t include a book titled, “a world of wealth”. My best guess is “The Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress”. Thx
I'm a few days late here, but this was really excellent. A few scattered thoughts with no particular coherence:
- is all successful reaction bound to be at least somewhat modernist? It seems impossible for a true reaction to take hold in even a moderately technologically-developed country without making *some* accomodations with the technological fruits of modernity.
- on the American/European roots of Trumpism and the fascism debate: I think a useful notion here is the idea from evolutionary biology of convergent evolution: two animals with pretty distinct histories can, under similar evolutionary pressures, end up looking strikingly similar in important ways. So, fish breath through gills and swim side-to-side, and whales breath air through blowholes and swim up-and-down, facts which do reflect different histories, and are important distinctions--but also, as water-dwelling organisms, they have similarly streamlined forms, etc. The reason I agree that fascism is a useful concept in discussing Trump, even while acknowledging his obvious American-ness, is because I think e.g. Herf's observation about the role of military veterans, the importance of a notion of "Heritage Americans", the tension between the elites trying to co-opt a mass movement and the actual leaders of that movement, etc show that Trumpism is being shaped by at least some of the same pressures as those operating in interwar Europe.
- on the movement of tech elites towards Trumpism: one of the ideas that I associate with Yarvin is that contra Professor Herf, democracy isn't actually associated with the freedom necessary to conduct science; I think the role of "wokeness" here is that, it provides the excuse to argue that a Trumpian purge is necessary to *restore* the freedom necessary to do science. Some of these people believe the full-on Yarvin version of this, that actually democracy is the real tyranny: I think Thiel is in the category. Someone like Musk seems to have moved pretty far in this direction too. Others I think just want a slight spring-cleaning of the academy from wokeness and think a concentrated dose of Trumpism will do the trick, but don't want any more than that. These people always make me think of the famous Arrested Development bit where David Cross discusses the possibility of an open marriage: sure, trying to tactically ally with Trump has worked out horribly for everyone else, all of whom deluded themselves that the benefits could possibly outweigh the costs... But... it just might work for us.
My impression of Vance is that he's more the latter than the former, despite his association with Thiel, but that's not based on much more than vibes.
Sorry for some very scattered thoughts, but a really thought provoking discussion!
Jeffrey Herf said at one point in this interview that "reviving race-science is idiotic".
Well, yes, yes it is. However, I think that these modern fascists have a DESIRE to be stupid. They don't want nuance, complexity, or reality, they want easy, simple fantasies that appeal to their emotions and resentments. They want to re-shape the world to match their stupid ideas. They WANT to be stupid, and they want to make everyone else stupid as well.
One point on the “economic crisis vs economic problems” puzzle: William Sheridan Allen makes a clear case that in the city studied in his The Nazi Seizure of Power, Northeim, there were economic problems but the crisis was hardly objective, more a matter of perception there – a matter of new bourgeois exposure to homelessness, especially – which is also a primary issue today. There’s a funny way mid-2010s rich city dwellers including the SV moguls were both cloistered from the normal poor and also overexposed to the worst off (increasingly on gruesome meth and opiate cocktails) that echoes the Weimar experience in Northeim very naturally.
Thanks John; this is essential listening. In the spirit of Herf's and your agreement that those that know better need to act, this will be forwarded to Colorado's 2 Democratic - thus far, worthless - US Senators. Rubio's most recent 'you-can't-make-this-up' contribution to reactionary modernism available at: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/09/us/politics/rubio-state-department-font.html?smid=em-share.
The hyperlink to : Jeffrey Herf, “Reactionary Modernism: Some Ideological Origins of the Primacy of Politics in the Third Reich” in Theory and Society, Nov. 1981, in JSTOR : This item is not available in JPASS. To view the available journals in your plan, browse the JPASS Collection. And : This item is not available for free online reading.
This is really fascinating in trying to locate the origin of Trump's authoritarianism. It seems to me he's mostly motivated by the need for leverage. He sees every interaction as a way to gain or use leverage over others. That's why he pardons a drug kingpin like Orlando Hernandez and a crypto criminal like CZ. He sees them as tools for leverage. And so far Congress seems willing to let him do it with impunity and SCOTUS has already given him carte blanche.
Thanks so much for this John.
roughly around 26: "what my oppeonents say (...) The big thing… is that italy and germany were these revisionist powers (...) against anglo-american dominance." The Trump administration IS trying to be a revisionist power against Anglo-American dominance. The new security strategy finally made that obvious .
yeah!
"It took a while for the historians to catch up with the novelists." Love this and will be keeping it.
Which of Joel Mokyr’s books was Prof Herf was referring to? Mokyr’s oeuvre doesn’t include a book titled, “a world of wealth”. My best guess is “The Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress”. Thx
I'm a few days late here, but this was really excellent. A few scattered thoughts with no particular coherence:
- is all successful reaction bound to be at least somewhat modernist? It seems impossible for a true reaction to take hold in even a moderately technologically-developed country without making *some* accomodations with the technological fruits of modernity.
- on the American/European roots of Trumpism and the fascism debate: I think a useful notion here is the idea from evolutionary biology of convergent evolution: two animals with pretty distinct histories can, under similar evolutionary pressures, end up looking strikingly similar in important ways. So, fish breath through gills and swim side-to-side, and whales breath air through blowholes and swim up-and-down, facts which do reflect different histories, and are important distinctions--but also, as water-dwelling organisms, they have similarly streamlined forms, etc. The reason I agree that fascism is a useful concept in discussing Trump, even while acknowledging his obvious American-ness, is because I think e.g. Herf's observation about the role of military veterans, the importance of a notion of "Heritage Americans", the tension between the elites trying to co-opt a mass movement and the actual leaders of that movement, etc show that Trumpism is being shaped by at least some of the same pressures as those operating in interwar Europe.
- on the movement of tech elites towards Trumpism: one of the ideas that I associate with Yarvin is that contra Professor Herf, democracy isn't actually associated with the freedom necessary to conduct science; I think the role of "wokeness" here is that, it provides the excuse to argue that a Trumpian purge is necessary to *restore* the freedom necessary to do science. Some of these people believe the full-on Yarvin version of this, that actually democracy is the real tyranny: I think Thiel is in the category. Someone like Musk seems to have moved pretty far in this direction too. Others I think just want a slight spring-cleaning of the academy from wokeness and think a concentrated dose of Trumpism will do the trick, but don't want any more than that. These people always make me think of the famous Arrested Development bit where David Cross discusses the possibility of an open marriage: sure, trying to tactically ally with Trump has worked out horribly for everyone else, all of whom deluded themselves that the benefits could possibly outweigh the costs... But... it just might work for us.
My impression of Vance is that he's more the latter than the former, despite his association with Thiel, but that's not based on much more than vibes.
Sorry for some very scattered thoughts, but a really thought provoking discussion!
Jeffrey Herf said at one point in this interview that "reviving race-science is idiotic".
Well, yes, yes it is. However, I think that these modern fascists have a DESIRE to be stupid. They don't want nuance, complexity, or reality, they want easy, simple fantasies that appeal to their emotions and resentments. They want to re-shape the world to match their stupid ideas. They WANT to be stupid, and they want to make everyone else stupid as well.
One point on the “economic crisis vs economic problems” puzzle: William Sheridan Allen makes a clear case that in the city studied in his The Nazi Seizure of Power, Northeim, there were economic problems but the crisis was hardly objective, more a matter of perception there – a matter of new bourgeois exposure to homelessness, especially – which is also a primary issue today. There’s a funny way mid-2010s rich city dwellers including the SV moguls were both cloistered from the normal poor and also overexposed to the worst off (increasingly on gruesome meth and opiate cocktails) that echoes the Weimar experience in Northeim very naturally.
Thanks John; this is essential listening. In the spirit of Herf's and your agreement that those that know better need to act, this will be forwarded to Colorado's 2 Democratic - thus far, worthless - US Senators. Rubio's most recent 'you-can't-make-this-up' contribution to reactionary modernism available at: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/09/us/politics/rubio-state-department-font.html?smid=em-share.
The hyperlink to : Jeffrey Herf, “Reactionary Modernism: Some Ideological Origins of the Primacy of Politics in the Third Reich” in Theory and Society, Nov. 1981, in JSTOR : This item is not available in JPASS. To view the available journals in your plan, browse the JPASS Collection. And : This item is not available for free online reading.
Anna's Archive : https://annas-archive.org/search?index=&page=1&sort=&display=&q=Theory+and+Society+ISSN+03042421 , does have pdf's of Theory and Society going back to 1986, btw. https://annas-archive.org/search?index=&page=1&sort=oldest&display=&q=Theory+and+Society+ISSN+03042421
that's weird, I was able to see it