Your first couple paragraphs reminded me of the pronoun debate with trans people. It's largely over at this point, but ten years ago trans people had to fight to get people to use correct pronouns in lots of contexts, and there were of course people who pushed back on that as an unbearable imposition.
It's a consequential example of it, but using someone's preferred pronouns could be categorized as manners (this is not to belittle the importance, I'm trans I can say it). The thing that that bugged me during the pronouns debates is that people rarely acknowledged the power that a speaker wields over a trans person by deciding which pronouns to use just based on their appearance. Many trans people go through a lot to conform to the expectations of whatever gender they transition to, and each conversation is a validation test of how successful they are. The speaker has a lot of power over someone at that point, and the respectful thing is to use it carefully.
“ we all know that guy or gal who’s taken on the role of “bad manners person,” who can’t be bothered to learn how others want to be treated, because they are concerned with deeper and more serious pursuits, or are “realer,” or are just a free spirit unfettered by the rules of society”
I don’t know him at all, but this is exactly the sort of character that Yglesias taps into on Twitter. Whether it’s real or kayfabe I don’t know, but the elevation of bad manners as a truer form has always bothered me. It implies that people of a lower status are not capable of learning to behave with respect (not true) or that strangers and acquaintances are not worth of respect as a default (also not true).
This is all correct. But also it may be true that many (but not all) people who get worked up about manners - pronoun use - in general debates about things in the abstract (and on the internet), are, when they come into personal or professional contact with individuals, actually far more polite. In other words, in what context are we speaking about manners? At the interpersonal level in my family, at my job, or chit-chatting with an acquaintance and using the appropriate language? Or are we talking about it on Substack, where the connection to politeness gives way to a discussion about politics and class signifiers.
I was just thinking that the objections some comedians make to 'not being allowed' to insult some people come close or nearer to objection to some people now having enough power for their opinions to matter.
That is to say, a question to ask is 'Would you tell a joke that easily could similarly offend your agent or your day-job‘s boss?' Many of the people of whom I'm thinking say they are taking-up the mantle of Lenny Bruce, but how many of them would be willing to tell jokes about the police with officers already in the room and seemingly itching to make an arrest?
Your first couple paragraphs reminded me of the pronoun debate with trans people. It's largely over at this point, but ten years ago trans people had to fight to get people to use correct pronouns in lots of contexts, and there were of course people who pushed back on that as an unbearable imposition.
It's a consequential example of it, but using someone's preferred pronouns could be categorized as manners (this is not to belittle the importance, I'm trans I can say it). The thing that that bugged me during the pronouns debates is that people rarely acknowledged the power that a speaker wields over a trans person by deciding which pronouns to use just based on their appearance. Many trans people go through a lot to conform to the expectations of whatever gender they transition to, and each conversation is a validation test of how successful they are. The speaker has a lot of power over someone at that point, and the respectful thing is to use it carefully.
“ we all know that guy or gal who’s taken on the role of “bad manners person,” who can’t be bothered to learn how others want to be treated, because they are concerned with deeper and more serious pursuits, or are “realer,” or are just a free spirit unfettered by the rules of society”
I don’t know him at all, but this is exactly the sort of character that Yglesias taps into on Twitter. Whether it’s real or kayfabe I don’t know, but the elevation of bad manners as a truer form has always bothered me. It implies that people of a lower status are not capable of learning to behave with respect (not true) or that strangers and acquaintances are not worth of respect as a default (also not true).
This is all correct. But also it may be true that many (but not all) people who get worked up about manners - pronoun use - in general debates about things in the abstract (and on the internet), are, when they come into personal or professional contact with individuals, actually far more polite. In other words, in what context are we speaking about manners? At the interpersonal level in my family, at my job, or chit-chatting with an acquaintance and using the appropriate language? Or are we talking about it on Substack, where the connection to politeness gives way to a discussion about politics and class signifiers.
I was just thinking that the objections some comedians make to 'not being allowed' to insult some people come close or nearer to objection to some people now having enough power for their opinions to matter.
That is to say, a question to ask is 'Would you tell a joke that easily could similarly offend your agent or your day-job‘s boss?' Many of the people of whom I'm thinking say they are taking-up the mantle of Lenny Bruce, but how many of them would be willing to tell jokes about the police with officers already in the room and seemingly itching to make an arrest?
Did you delete your Twitter? (Thinking about doing this myself.)